And we’re back! COVID-19 had forced us to step away from the microphones so we could focus on our students, our families, and ourselves. For this return episode we’ve decided to change things up a bit and rather than focus on the teaching of our guest(s), we chose to put together a team of educators and spend some time discussing the impact we’ve observed that the pandemic has had on the world of academia. So please join us as hosts Gina and Tom welcome Becca and Kelly to the microphones for our first pandemic pedagogy podcast. Please be sure to subscribe to, rate, and review the podcast and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @pedagogyagogo.
And we’re back! COVID-19 had forced us to step away from the microphones so we could focus on our students, our families, and ourselves. For this return episode we’ve decided to change things up a bit and rather than focus on the teaching of our guest(s), we chose to put together a team of educators and spend some time discussing the impact we’ve observed that the pandemic has had on the world of academia. So please join us as hosts Gina and Tom welcome Becca and Kelly to the microphones for our first pandemic pedagogy podcast. Please be sure to subscribe to, rate, and review the podcast and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @pedagogyagogo.
1234 Pedagogy a go go.
Unknown:Pedagogy Go go go
Gina Turner:Hello and welcome to Pedagogy-a-go-go, a podcast about college faculty sharing what happens in their classrooms and why. This is Season Three, Episode One, Pandemic Pedagogies and the Art of Self Care, and we are your hosts, Gina Turner and Tom O'Connor.
Kelly Allen:What are we doing?
Tom O'Connor:All right, I guess I'm just gonna jump into the deep end.
Kelly Allen:Can you swim?
Tom O'Connor:No, I definitely can't.
Rebecca Martin:He's a good swimmer!
Tom O'Connor:(laughter) Well, hello, and welcome to Pedagogy-a-go-go quarantine edition, quad-cast? COVID edition? I think we're gonna have to find a good name. I'm here with my co host, Gina Turner, after probably the longest seven months in history, it is really good to see and hear you again, Gina.
Gina Turner:Likewise, Tom, I'm kind of amazed that we're able to come back to what had been a little, you know, sense of normalcy, and doing our podcast once a month. So it's really great to be back. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Tom O'Connor:I am too. And it's kind of a special conversation. I don't want to call this a special edition. But these are crazy times. And so I think we felt that we needed to have a podcast that was designed to address the times we're living in. So rather than go through kind of our usual format, we're here with two very special guests, Professor of literature and food science, Kelly Allen, who also happens to be our show runner, and Professor of literature, who teaches in the medical humanities, as well as some of our developmental literacy classes, Professor Rebecca Martin, who also happens to be my wife. So, welcome to you both, and welcome to the show. It's awesome family,
Gina Turner:It's all in the family.
Tom O'Connor:And for this first podcast, and we hope to do two more in the next coming weeks before what is the end of our fall semester. This is the elephant in the room podcast, we're going to be addressing the pandemic and COVID and how has it affected our lives academically, in the classroom and at home. So, we hope that this conversation is meaningful, and that you all find something here value. I've talked a lot in this show about about vulnerability. And this is a moment where I think we as members of this program can allow ourselves to be vulnerable. And talk about how challenging the last couple months have been, and share kind of the stories of strength that are getting us through the winds that we're having, and some of the hills that we've had to climb along the way.
Kelly Allen:Mm hmm.
Gina Turner:So we are all trying to muddle through and you know, one of the ways in which we're muddlling is trying to continue our jobs as academics as administrators at this community college. And, you know, some of us are struggling, some faculty are struggling as much as the students are. So the first question really is just in general, how are you tackling COVID? The pandemic, social distancing? How is that coming up in your classes? Who wants to go first? Or do I have to call on someone? I'm using my teacher voice!
Kelly Allen:Where do we start with that? You know? But yeah, so I've got a whole bunch of things that I could certainly unload, but I tend to like to go last. So if anyone else would
Rebecca Martin:Oh you like to go last? I thought you were the like to..."like to go first" type. Okay. I have no problem with that. I have thoughts...
Kelly Allen:lay it on us, sister.
Tom O'Connor:Just quickly, just because you're new to the audience. And I gave you another brief intro. Do you mind just telling us a little bit about your role at NCC and who you are first.
Rebecca Martin:I know, honestly, Thomas, as someone married to me, that was a very brief description, when there's a lot to go on. (laughter) So if you don't know me, I'm Rebecca Martin. And I teach in the English department. And I teach developmental, English, I teach women's literature, so I teach in the Women's Studies program too. And I teach an English II, that is focused on the medical humanities. That's what my dissertation work was in and it's actually very timely for COVID because all of my research and my dissertation was done focusing on an area of research that really says learning and reading literature is good for medical professionals in their education and in their development as practitioners. And I think every time I watched the news, and I see the kind of video logs that doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists are offering to the news to try to describe their experiences, I mean, those are what I studied, they are their medical literature, their, their chaos narrative, specifically, which is my specific area of specialization. We get so specific in these long dissertations! Chaos narratives are narratives that are told in the middle of an event, it can be an illness event, it can be a pandemic, but chaos narratives are kind of defined by the fact that they are in the middle of that experience, there is no conclusion yet, often they're marked by kind of this feeling of being trapped in the ever-present. And certainly, I think, when I hear people talk about their COVID experiences, they are talking about being trapped in a chaos narrative. And I find that funny in some ways, because that's my area of research. And I see people handling it in the ways that I researched, which is some people like roll up in a ball, and they don't want to talk about it. Other people are like, "I've got this under control, I'm going to exert as much power over people as I can hear my policies, here's my discipline, this is what we're gonna do!" as though, you know, somehow that's gonna write the world. Other people, I think, approach it kind of like, we were talking about before we
started recording, which is:how do you answer the question of how are you doing right now? How do you answer the question of, how you're feeling or where you are, and in the chaos narrative theory, and in my own personal experiences, as someone with my own chronic illness, you know, often just being present is enough. And I see that with my students, to get back to teaching, which is what we're supposed to be talking about. My students are very comfortable, some of them, being in chaos, they have lived lives where they have not been secure, where they have not had a guaranteed safety net, where they're very used to feeling a bit out of control. And so COVID has put pressure on them. But in some ways, I think that they had skill sets that others of us did not have coming in. And sometimes in class, when we meet, we just talk about what they're doing and how they're managing. And they kind of want to talk about the people who aren't handling the chaos that well. And they want to talk about the ways that the people who are not handling the chaos, well are resorting to"discipline and punish" as a way of coping and they're seeing that in their classrooms. So, so one of the things that I've been thinking about in my classroom in terms of COVID, is my policies. Are my policies meaningful during COVID? And if they're not meaningful now, and if they're not necessary, now, are they necessary? Are they going to be necessary in meaningful post COVID? Are my policies rooted in kind of old fashioned ideals of what a student should be that are not productive anymore? And I know there's a lot of students right now who are struggling with faculty who are enforcing policies that for the students feel really just like - I've had those students say "this person is just totally out to lunch". They are not aware of how we're living in the world. And I don't know, I just sort of wonder. I think it used to be a badge of courage for academics to be a little out to lunch, but I do wonder if now COVID has...
Gina Turner:exacerbated.
Rebecca Martin:That's the word Gina. (laughter) But it hasn't done that. And, we need to really seriously look at our pedagogy. And really seriously think about the things that we've always just taken for granted.
Gina Turner:Kelly, you were gonna say something?
Kelly Allen:Oh, yeah. So, um, so I kind of have a question for you, Becca. Because like, as you're talking, I was like,"Well hold the phone". Are you talking about reconsidering, like reimagining, our pedagogy, specifically in response to COVID or is this something that we maybe should have been thinking about earlier than that. So, you had introduced yourself as a developmental educator, and we know that we have listeners who are not part of the Northampton Community College community, or perhaps listeners (actually I know there's listeners out there who teach at a four year college or university). So they're not quite familiar with what developmental education is. And so I know that when I was hired at Northampton, in 2008, I was hired to teach those courses. And as you and I both know, those are classes where we need to really focus on adaptive pedagogies. Because we're working with individuals that come from a very wide variety of educational backgrounds. And the thing that just always like, just pissed me off, when I was teaching those courses was that there was this idea that, okay, the students have taken these courses, and now they're "fixed" or whatever. And now we can start teaching in, in this"traditional" in what we all know, now is this very kind of like, you know, white supremacist like, colonial-driven forms of pedagogy within higher ed. And what I'm hoping that happens. And this is kind of like feeding off of what you had said is, what I'm hoping that happens is that people start to realize, Oh, we don't have to do it this way, that what we are doing is actually harmful to the academic and emotional well being of our students, and also for for ourselves. So I know, it's just, yeah, to go back to how I started this, like the way that you began this conversation. Like, I had to just keep reminding myself that, you're talking about COVID, but you're also not talking about COVID. So...
Gina Turner:I think I think that's a great point, Kelly, is that this experience is just shining such a light on our individual pedagogical philosophies. So Tom, you are gonna say something.
Tom O'Connor:Ah, I was like three things I wanted to respond to, I guess I wanted to return to the idea of rigidity versus adaptability. Becca, you were talking about the people who use you know, the old Foucaultian"discipline and punish" right? As a means to try to assert order in our lives.
Kelly Allen:She dropped an F bomb there!
Rebecca Martin:if I say discipline, and punish, Foucault is coming!
Tom O'Connor:It's like throwing candy at a kid during Halloween!(laughter) Well, let me speak really, personally, Kelly, you approached me and Gina about doing a show on the pandemic, like five, five months ago, right in the middle of the summer. And I was not able to adapt in that moment, I did not feel up to the task of having this conversation at that time, and I want to be open about that. Because like, I was angry, because I think people were operating under so much stress, our teachers and students, and in my role, you know, I'd have people calling me with issues and and they'd say, "well, I'm just dropping these students from my class, I'm going to fail everyone". And and that that was their response was because they were ready to kind of just to give up and be done with it, because they had too much sitting on their plate. And so I think we, as educators have all had to work on building up our reserves, right, our capital, our ability to adapt. And that was during the summer of great transition as we decided how we were going to teach in a COVID world. And one thing we actually
haven't addressed is:we're all teaching in new formats. So I have a hybrid ground class. I don't know if any, is anyone else? You're teaching anything in person?
Kelly Allen:Yeah, I am.
Tom O'Connor:You are, Kelly. And that's a traditional class, but it's a new world. We're sitting in a socially distance classroom behind masks. My jokes don't land because I don't have my affect. You know, I'm a little deaf in one ear.(laughter) So, you know, whereas I used to follow who was speaking by their face and their and their reactions, you know, I have to be like, "I heard someone talking in this part of the room". So, I had to readapt to that. And oddly enough, and so here's a really positive thing. It's one of the best on ground experiences I've ever had. Not because of those difficulties, but in some way because every student had elected to learn in that environment and knew what they were coming for. Whereas this sometimes takes classes weeks to build camaraderie, like we had that. There was a gratitude in that classroom and eagerness to be here. And I've had in COVID times the best attendance I've ever had an on ground class. Comparatively, I'm also teaching what we're calling a blended online, which is half the class is a synchronous, half of it's remote, you know, where we meet up. And that's why - so the ground classes English II, the online class is a women and gender studies class. And let me tell you, Zooming at eight in the morning, is tough! I am, I do not always feel great that I am doing enough as a teacher to engage them, because - and they're really honest about it. They're like, "I woke up three minutes ago, I'm on my phone, I'm in bed, I'm not going to turn on my camera". And so I have to build into the class incentives, to engage in a visual way, if you're comfortable. And then also be understanding, you know, I have a student who's like, I have vertigo, so it's helpful for me to not have my camera on, or, I don't know, the circumstances of I might have students that are living in a house without furniture, or have kids, they need to be muted because they have young kids running around. And so, Becca had a good laugh
at me, you know, 9:30 in the morning, after my class is done, I'm also invited into all these people's living rooms. So here I am, a straight white man reading aloud a poem about lesbian desire and sex by Audre Lorde, by a black feminist woman. And then I see someone's dad, just walking around in the background of the shot, you know, as we're trying to have a really vulnerable conversation. And that like a gender studies class is an area where on ground, I felt like I had a really good tool set for creating an environment where everyone trusted each other. And I will tell you that in a Zoom class that I'm recording, where other people's family members are listening in, it's really hard to do that. And I'm not always successful. And I want to own that lack of success right here and right now, for everyone else who's feeling that struggle. And so I began by talking about vulnerability, this is my attempt to be that, because, I think we're all exposed nerves. As educators, we have never been more vulnerable. And teaching has never been hard. Because many of us have been teaching 10, 15, 20 years, we're like,"we got this". And all of a sudden, the field around has just changed.
Gina Turner:It's so true. And as I listen to what the three of you are saying, I mean, I have to just pick up on something everyone said, you know, Rebecca was talking about how we really have to think about what are these boundaries and structures that we're building into our classrooms in this environment? And what are we going to carry forward? And then, of course, what Tom was saying just about the online blended, but I have to say, I've discovered that I love online blended! Which I would have never guessed in a million years, because, as you described, half of the work is done asynchronously. So they do it on their own time. And then the other half is a once a week meeting for an hour and 15 minutes, I also have an 8am class. And sometimes my voice is so croaky, because I haven't spoken to another soul that morning, I have to drink lots of tea while I'm teaching the class. But in letting go of so many of my expectations that I had in my on ground class, I feel like I've created a space in the online blended, where what I actually want - the kernel of what I actually want to happen - is happening. So, in my on ground classes, I have index cards that I handed out at the beginning of class, and we do a one question quiz at the beginning of the class. And then I have my handouts for the discussions. And I have my handouts for the demonstrations that they're going to do together. And when I was planning for the semester, I turned to my husband, I said, What am I going to do about handouts? And I realized, I don't need handouts. There's no reason for me to have paper handouts. I don't need these index cards. So we still start with a question, which is kind of the icebreaker. And part of the reason I used to do that in on ground classes is to encourage them to be there on time, because they earned a couple of points for being there. I stole that idea from another professor. And I love it, it works really well. But because it is less disruptive to come in to an online version of the class, people drifting in a little late, doesn't bother me, which then shows how much of it was a personal irrational bias that I had - not irrational - but it was a personal bias that I had about getting to class on time. And of course, then that I find out later it's because their connection was weak or because they had to do it in the break room from work, etc, etc, because everybody's schedules are crazy. And so it's very interactive, you know, I have the students answering questions and raising their hands and putting them in small groups, and then the groups report out. And like you, Tom, I feel like the attendance has been phenomenal. I've had really good attendance in these three classes that I'm teaching. So, you know, it's, I don't want to call it a silver lining, because we are in the middle of chaos, but at least it is showing me personally, things that I will carry forward when I teach in the future, and let go a lot of the things that I felt were so, so important. So we've really been talking about how COVID has impacted us as teachers. And Rebecca, you talked a little bit about, talking about it in class, but I'm wondering if you've brought it in, almost as content for your class? Are any of you using the virus, or the pandemic and social distancing as content in your classes, and if so, how?
Rebecca Martin:One of the things that - I don't know if this is directly related to COVID, or not, but it's sort of there's so many massive things happening in our culture right now and country, that it's, they're all coming into the classroom at the same time. And I do think there can be silver linings in chaos, and I think it's important to grab those when you find them. My students love the blended online, they are all hopeful that it sticks around, that they have that option that they don't have to do fully asynchronous online, that there are blended online. Because I think, this idea that in massive shifting times, you do kind of invent new ways of approaching things that you wouldn't have otherwise, because you're destabilized, and then suddenly, you have to find a way to re-stabilize yourself. But we read the short story "Everyday Use" by Alice Walker, in my 151 class, and we had one of the most meaningful conversations about the impact of education and class that I have ever had with a group. They wanted to talk about - so the premise of the story is that there's a mom and two daughters, the one daughter goes off to get an education, she comes back to see her mom and her sister, and she has been changed by that experience. And Alice Walker is interesting, because she makes D who's the sister who's gone away, not that likable. She's got a lot of things about her that are abrasive. And the other daughter, Maggie, the other sister, she's quiet, and she's been burned in a fire. And she sort of keeps to herself, but she's learned the old ways of living. And so the story really sets up this distinction between what happens when you go off and get educated versus if you've stayed at home, and the values of both sides of that conversation. And my students really wanted to talk about - they're sitting on their homes. Many of them with parents who don't understand why they're going to college, or parents who didn't give them a choice about going to college. Right, it's like a spectrum. And they wanted to talk really specifically about their decision to continue going to college THIS semester. And they wanted to talk about, you know, last semester was a dumpster fire. And I'm like, I hear you, we all felt that, you know, and then they talked about this transition online, and it was really quick. And people didn't know how to do it, and that they over the summer really thought a lot about "do I want to go back to college in the fall? Do I want to invest my time and money there? Is the investment going to be worth it? Because we're going to be online? And do I even like online? And will online work and what am I going to get from it". And the story allowed them a place to talk about that decision. And I don't know about you guys, but when I did mid semester reporting, and I sent emails to the students I hadn't heard from, I got a lot. I got a couple of responses from students who said, thank you so much for reaching out. I almost gave up last week. I almost stopped because - and they all have a lot of good reasons why they almost stopped. But many of them, two or three of them said"I really appreciate that you still think I can do it. And the fact that you still think I can do it makes me think that I can still do it". And they've invested Did this money and they've already invested time. And just getting a note from me saying, we still have time for you to make up this work, we'll talk about what you can focus on, certain past assignments are more important than others. And, and that was a pedagogical move on my part, that, even though I would say I am one of the most adaptive teachers, I pride myself on it. And Kelly's right with that developmental education background, you have to be on your toes constantly. It's one of the reasons I love teaching Dev. Ed, you have absolutely no idea what you're going to see every day in the classroom. And for some people, that would be terrifying. For me, it makes me feel invigorated. But, you know, one of the things I had to really think about with my curriculum, and my pedagogical kind of approach this semester is: what assignments do I value the most? Which ones are not as valuable? And if they're not as valuable, why am I having students do them? And why am I grading them? Because the grading load, I don't know about you guys, but like, my, my face time with students has gone down, but my grading load has increased exponentially. And so there's this kind of question of: Am I giving them meaningful assignments? And if they fall behind, are those assignments still meaningful? And should they still invest that time in them? Because (and this is quite a long winded way around to what I want to say), but our students investment in education is their entire future. For us, it's another class for teaching, we already have our education. So we have MAs and BAs, and PhDs, and all those things behind our name. And I think sometimes, like, I got my Master's and nobody made a big deal out of it in my family, I got my PhD and nobody made a big deal out of it. But, that's the kind of family I came from, they were like, yeah, that's expected of you. Of course, you're gonna do that. And, and I have to always remind myself that every single email I send out just touching base and saying, "you can still do this, I'm gonna work with you to do this". That is the difference between them transforming their own lives and potentially their family's lives, or giving up and stopping and believing that this is not for them, that education is not for them. And that that is always on the table when we teach, but I feel like during Coronavirus, there's just so much extra pressure. They're working so much more, finances are so much like tighter, the economic implications of this Coronavirus are so, so crazy, the the health insurance aspects of it, that they have a lot of other things that are clearly much more important, I think, in a lot of ways than the readings that we're doing in my class, and yet they're still willing to invest in what we're doing. And I just find that, first of all inspiring, but also, it makes me really think about the fact that like, Am I tired? Is there a lot of grading? Absolutely. Is it worth it to take a little extra time to grade that late assignment and give that student that chance that I otherwise would have closed the door on? Hell yeah! I mean, like when we talk about the actual costs, my 25 minutes is not worth a penny compared to what that could potentially mean for their future. And I don't want to lose track of that. Because one of the things I I see happening with the burnout that's happening in faculty, one of the stages of burnout is depersonalization. Where suddenly the people that you are serving and you are working with, you have to kind of not see them as full people anymore. Because you are exhausted emotionally, you feel like you aren't making any progress, and so you depersonalized from them in the world. We have to double- and triple-down, and remember what we're here to do, and remember what doors we are keeping open, and honest to God, stand in that doorway holding that door open for as long as it takes because this is so much bigger than us being tired and burned out. And I don't know Coronavirus has just made me realize that even more. I could keep going but i won't!(laughter)
Tom O'Connor:i just want to - can we, for the purposes of this show and every person listening to this, to Pedagogy-a-go-go right now, let this be the pay-it-forward moment. Tell your students if you yourself are an educator, that they can do this, that you're going to help them, support them. They need to hear- I'm just going to say in the last 48 hours one of my students is in the hospital being induced and having a baby and one of my best friend's students is in the hospital because she tried to end her own life. Because of the stresses that she was under. We don't necessarily know the stresses our students are under, and giving a moment of our time to them. Whether it's taking that time to grade that extra assignment, or just to send that word of encouragement, I think is more important now in this moment than any other time, and does more great good than we probably realize.
Gina Turner:Kelly, you - yeah, go ahead.
Kelly Allen:Thanks, Gina. I'm realizing, listening to you, Becca, it's reminded me like how long it's been since you and I got to sit down and talk shop, so we gotta...
Rebecca Martin:You don't come to cluster anymore!
Kelly Allen:...because I'm not in that cluster anymore. So, I've moved from my literature and writing roots to now I'm being kind of shuffled over to social sciences, because that's where food studies lives, but I miss you terribly darling. But anywho, So, there's a couple things, though, that, again, that you're saying here that's got me, thinking these, like, kind of other thoughts. That's some deep stuff for us here on the podcast. But anywho. So, like, before, when you're talking about, what assignments? Are we realizing that like, okay, we really don't need those anymore. Like, I think that is something that's really healthy for us to, to sit down and spend some time with and figure out, so why aren't those like assignments relevant for this course? Why had I been teaching them in the past? What had been influencing my decision making to actually put that down on the paper, and then ask my students to do this. I think that this is a wonderful time for that re-imagination of how it is that we teach. So for for the class that I'm working with right now. So like Gina, when you said, who's bringing COVID into the class, I'm not necessarily doing that. But, there's a lot of activism that is very visible in our country. And that's something that I'm bringing into my course. So, it's a humanities course that focuses on an investigation of our cultural relationship with the environment. So we're spending the whole time talking about environmental activism. But how this is building off of what you had said, Becca, about our assignments, I'm not doing traditional, like papers, or research essays. We're doing most of our work on Instagram. Because, I had to stop and think, well, wait a minute, when our students - yes, our students need to know how the academic essay works, because that is the genre within the academic world, where ideas are untangled, reshaped, new knowledge is made. But after a vast majority of our students are completed with their college education. That's not how they're going to communicate with the rest of the world. They're communicating with the rest of the world through text messages, through emails, but they're also doing it through social media. Now, I'm a big fan of Instagram, because of hashtag activism. But I also like to stay away from Facebook, just because I think it's just so polluted. And then I don't do Twitter, because I don't know how. (laughter) But anyways, so what this has allowed me to do is really stop and rethink, why is it that I'm doing these things that I do? What value are my students really getting from - not so much addressing the content, but what relationships am I asking my students to have with this content? But I'll tell you, one thing that's been like frickin phenomenal is that all of a sudden, a majority of our class happens on our phones. And it's just been absolutely delightful. So like, I'm on Instagram, and I'm scrolling through stuff. And, I'm seeing stuff from some of my farmer friends and some of my activist groups that I follow and then, a student's assignment scrolls through, because they're working on stuff and it's just, it feels really good. But that's the first thing - and being totally mindful of time here, but this the first thing that you kind of got me thinking about and then the other is with late work. That's something that I still struggle with. And I'd love to hear what the rest of you think about this because late work, while it is something that we had to manage, prior to the pandemic, it's something that is really rearing its head now. And I have two policies in
my class:no late and no hate. And the lateness kind of speaks back to what you were saying earlier, Gina, about being late to class, but then also, like, I had a very strict, no late assignments policy. But I wouldn't say that I'm not being adaptive. But like, I don't understand late work, because the way I shape my assignments is they do something so that they build knowledge for the next part of the class. So if they're doing something that addresses an idea, or skill that was addressed in week three, but they're turning it in on week 15, what happened in those in those 12 weeks? Something is missing there for me,
Rebecca Martin:Can I offer?
Kelly Allen:Oh, for sure, go ahead.
Rebecca Martin:So this is how I look at late work. So as I've shared before, I have a chronic illness, that makes me, in greater and lesser degrees, functional day to day. And that means I have set myself up with a grading schedule where I sort of need to be grading every single day. And I always think of my policies for lateness and work on time as assuming that a student is able to perform at the same ability every week, throughout the semester. And the reason I do not hold them to that standard is because I myself cannot live up to that standard. I have days where I get migraines, and I cannot function, I can't grade. And so I - and I talk to my students about this, I'm very transparent with them about about my chronic illness. And it's actually been an amazing tool to get them to talk to me, and to sort of understand that we all struggle, but we all also need to be responsible too. And that that very careful line. So I recognize that I can't just blow off and not grade anything for them until the last week of the semester. And in that same way I would ask for them to not hold off and do none of their work until the last week of the semester. But I'm also cognizant of the fact that we are not equally present and able to complete work and be a good worker in equal measures every single day of every single week. And so I always talk to them about how, you know, there are going to be times when they're going to get their first papers graded and back to them within a week. And there are going to be other times where I'm going to be saying "I'm so sorry, guys, I had a lot of grading, I had two days where I was completely off. So I'm trying to catch up on days when I feel better". And I'm very transparent with them about that time management process and how it impacts my livelihood with my work, but also trying to be transparent with them about how they need to be thinking about that with themselves too, because what they might not have illnesses like I do, but they have kids and they have jobs. And so that constant maintenance of our time management, I think is is really important to consider because I feel like a lot of our policies are based in ideas that we are all well and functioning equally throughout the semester. And I loved that Coronavirus made us say, "Hey, we might have students who get sick. And if they get sick, we can't fail them because they got Coronavirus and we're out for two weeks, we need to be adaptable and find a way to allow them to be sick but then to recover, recover physically for them, but also in terms of our class". And I totally hear what you're saying in terms of not letting things slide until the very end and could because it's not manageable for any of us. But at the same time. For me personally when I hear about"zero late policies, there's no such thing as late". I can't live up to that standard. And so I couldn't possibly ask them to. I have asked for extensions on reports to Christine. I have asked colleagues to move points because I've been ill and because they respect me as a professional. Nobody makes a big deal out of it. And so I talk to my students about the fact that like, you have to set a standard for yourself for sure. And you have to show your colleagues and friends that you are that you are careful and thoughtful and want to be present. But there are going to be times where we all falter. And we all need a little bit of room. And so I feel like there's a really careful balance there. There was this great article called "Your Attendance Policy is Ablest. AF", which I don't know if I can say those words on CBS Anyway, um, but (laughter)
Tom O'Connor:"abilist as as freak".
Rebecca Martin:That's right. That Anglo Saxon word. But yeah, because there is this sense that people are, are able to - and it's so capitalist! It's like,"you must come to work and pop in at this time and punch your card!", you....
Tom O'Connor:Did you just call Kelly part of the capitalist machinery that he indicted earlier in the program. That's cold! That is ice cold!(laughter)
Gina Turner:So I want to jump in on... because... before I forget! So Rebecca, I partly need to jump in because I am an absolutely no late assignments person. And I will I will die on that flag or whatever the metaphor is...
Rebecca Martin:Hill!
Gina Turner:Hill, thank you, I will put a flag on the hill and then die on it. (laughter) But, as Kelly and I were talking about this, and I was also hoping Kelly would mention his"labor contract model" that he uses for his class, but for me - and I think what this highlights is that it's okay, if each one of us operates differently in the classroom, that's okay. Because we all have to find the model that works best for us. So for me, I am a structure person. But I'm also a person who if you want to meet me halfway, I will meet you three quarters of the way. But they have to meet me halfway. So I don't accept any late work. But...
Tom O'Connor:Even if they come to you beforehand, Gina?
Gina Turner:Well, let me finish what I'm saying! And so, there are two ways that that is workable for me. The first is that I build in a couple of extra assignments, and they're always toward the end of the the semester, and I then throw them a few other little bones of extra credit, not a lot, it probably all of it together doesn't add up to more than 10%. But it allows them to make up points from missed assignments earlier in the semester. And the other thing, Tom, is that in my syllabus in big bold letters, it says if you anticipate a problem, get in touch with me, 24 hours in advance is all I ask, and I will give you whatever extensions you ask for. And so that's what I mean is if I if they meet me, you know, if they meet me 20% of the way I'll meet them 80% of the way, and...
Tom O'Connor:I wouldn't have a zero tolerance.
Gina Turner:I mean, it is zero tolerance. If they come to me the day, a minute after it's due, I'm not going to accept it. It's for my own sanity. And then the other thing I wanted to pick up on just quickly was... Oh, yeah. And I asked Kelly to talk about the labor contract as well. But I was thinking earlier when Rebecca was pointing out that her research area was narrative and chaos narrative and medical narratives. And I always feel incredibly lucky that - my area of focus in psychology was about physical health and how people cope with it. So all the psychology around physical health. So for me, this is what I'm teaching - how people learn coping, even in my cognitive class, we can still talk about coping in an era of pandemic and Coronavirus, and all the other things that are going on right now. So, it's pretty easy for me to bring the content into my class, but also the process, which is sort of what Kelly was talking about. It does build from week to week. And so what I've been finding is, I have - a couple of the extra credit options have been go to the Peace Conference. So for those listening, who aren't familiar with this, NCC has an annual multi day conference where it has a theme. And this year's theme was really around social justice, racial, racial justice, and the election and voting. And so I said, if you go to sessions and write me up something that struck your fancy or interested you write me a short email, I'll give you 10 points of extra credit. And then when they did that, because I'm teaching two sections of research methods I said, so now turn this into your research project. So then, they're dealing with what is actually what they're actually really interested in, because their emails were like, Oh, I never knew this. And this was so interesting. And so I'm not saying I'm reinventing the wheel at all, but it's it's the idea that if there are these stages that they have to work toward, get them to pick things that grab their attention. And that seems to help them to stay focused on the on the project. So Kelly, did you want to talk about since I've now mentioned it three times, did you want to talk about the labor contract? I love this idea so much.
Kelly Allen:Um, I suppose so. And I think it's something that- Well, I know that something that has been - that I've brought with me from my days as a developmental educator, and, Becca, I love that you threw in the dreaded C word "capitalist", because, yeah, a point based system is capitalist. And, that rigid calendar structure that we build our semesters on is capitalist. So I guess I should have given you some... I feel like I'm defending myself. And I know don't need to do that in this setting. But that's not how the class is set up. So I work on a labor contract where there are no grades throughout the semester. So when there's a task that is due, like that task needs to be done, so that we can keep building the rest of the semester. And if a student is present for that task, or not, is really up to them. But like, they're not going to, you know, to go back to Gina's metaphor, they're not going to die on any hill. Because like, that's just like, that'd be a real jerk move on my part. So but back when I was, just afraid to move away from the point system, I would say okay, to get a 100% in this class, you would have to accumulate 1000 points over the course of the semester. But I have enough assignments here that you could hypothetically earn 1250 points. So like, if they miss the midterm, they could still get an A in the class, which I know that some of my colleagues would probably like, freak out about it. But even so, I found that there's a whole lot of like subjectivity, that was kind of immersed in that whole grading system that I have never felt comfortable with. And back when I was teaching developmental education,what I would do is, based on feedback. You do work, you turn in work, and then I'm going to give you feedback. And then that's how we're going to learn. And then at the end of the semester, you're going to put together this portfolio where you show me what you learned. And then we'll sit down like, okay, is this like, something that you feel comfortable doing English one work with? And then let's have a conversation about that. But this semester, I just went full in on the labor contract. And it's been wonderful. Now granted, students have a really hard time with, with kind of believing me, so they turn in something they're like, so I turn that in. And so like, we're good, and I'm like, yeah, we're totally good. And then I would give them feedback. And then they'd be like, Oh, God, okay, I'm sorry. So when can I turn this back in? It's like, No, no, you don't need to, like you did the labor you're learning. So we're gonna keep moving on here. So like, that whole experience has just been absolutely lovely. And if I can put something together that can be shared on the podcast website, I'll do that. But the reason why I went like just 100% all in with no grading this semester was because I was thinking about the mental and academic health of our students. So like, how effing stressful is it for our students during grading time? Like if you look at your roster? In past semesters, you see that weeks three through week five is like this, this academic black hole. Like that's when most students will just like drop off the face of the earth. And I share with my students, yeah, the first couple of weeks, it's hard to find parking. Just wait till after week three, you know, week five, there's parking galore. Because what happens is like by week, three to week five, that's when the first major assignment has been submitted, collected and returned. And then that's when students who are like, Yeah, I was like an A or a B student in high school, they're like, Whoa, this isn't high school anymore. And then they start to like, freak out. And what I want to do is I want to alleviate that stress where I just say to them, you just got to turn this thing in. So, going back to defend myself though, lif a student can't just turn it in, then there's something else that we need to look at there. But also like if they're not turning in anything over four weeks, and I'm very sympathetic to chronic illnesses and just life stuff like - so we haven't even talked about what it's like to be a parent during this time. So I know of the four of us that I'm the parent here (I'm not the parent of you, obviously).(laughter) But holy, like, I want to cuss but yeah, as you said that this is not that kind of thing. Like, I am just effing sick and tired of the narrative being focused on just our students only, and us being adaptable for our students. Like I love our students. I tell them that every day, like when they come into class, when they leave, it's like, all right, Love you. Bye. Okay, and then Gina says she needs to say something.
Tom O'Connor:No, I think we're both - actually, there's a beautiful pivot Kelly on what you're talking about that is something that we wanted to also talk about. And it's so important, actually, because you're talking you began by talking about the mental health and wellness of your students and how you're kind of horse of a different color form of assessment, which is very Black Mountain College back in the day. And this idea of project based grade lists a different form of assessment, your assessment isn't a great, it's the feedback I'm giving you, as a means of a building in a different form of engagement with a class which I think is awesome. And I'm going to try I want to bring a little bit of COVID in here, because we've been talking about the stress our students are under and how we need to adapt to that. And I agree, Kelly, that we also need to be talking about the stress that we are under. And I want to ask Gina first actually, as a resident yogi, because for the for the people listening, I think it's really important that you want them to come away from this with things that they themselves can be doing for their own work life balance for their own mental wellness, their own self preservation in these kind of fraught times. And let me ask you - and I'm someone who- I am, I'm gonna just curse - I'm s*** when it comes to self care. And they can bleep it out in post. Thank you, Jeff.(laughter) I was under so much stress over the summer as an administrator trying to convert 80% of our classes into remote that I cracked a back molar because I was grinding my teeth so badly at night. I have to learn to process and deal with my stress, and these are like the most stressful times ever.
Rebecca Martin:I'm glad this is on record. (laughter)
Tom O'Connor:Yeah, it is on record. So hold on, hold me to account and I'll go last and I'll share the things that I am trying and Becca watches me try and is witness to my failure to do to improve my own mental belt, mental wellness, insanity. So Gina, yogi, what are you doing in COVID times at home to deal with the stress of teaching in these times as well as just the general stress? I think we're all living - because we're in the upside down!
Gina Turner:Well, I'll tell you, I'm glad you're starting with me because of the way I'm going to frame my answer. But I do want to share with all of you this quote that I ran across I think someone put it on their Facebook page or something by Audre Lorde, who I think we already mentioned in the podcast earlier?
Tom O'Connor:I spoke about I was reading her love poem.
Gina Turner:That's right, yeah. And so the quote is: "Caring for myself is not self indulgence. It is self preservation. And that is an act of political warfare". And I just found that so powerful, because I think a lot of people feel guilty, or feel that self care is frivolous in some way. And people use that old cliche that first you have to put on your own mask on the airplane before you can help someone else with their mask. But the bottom line is, we all, similar to what we were saying before, we all have our boundaries. We all have what we need in the classroom, we were talking about that earlier. And we all have a certain amount of energy that we're able to expend on any one thing and if we have multiple things asking us for energy at the same time, then that energy has to be split somehow so, by keeping ourselves healthy as best we can then we can continue to do the work without grinding our teeth down to the nub or having sleepless nights or, you know, name it. So I said I was going to frame the question. So for me personally, I am very much the sort of person who needs a lot of structure in my life but also because I have been so incredibly stressed with the uncertainty of what's going on in the world. I need to focus on concrete activities in and outside of my work life. I don't know if this is really answering your question, Tom. I'm sorry, I just have to laugh it Kelly, you did not get loud and angry![NOTE: Kelly had posted in the chat an apology for getting"loud and angry in his previous response]
Rebecca Martin:I know, it's great. Why would you apologize for that? Jesus!
Kelly Allen:Man syndrome.
Tom O'Connor:We're looking at each other over zoom right now while recording elsewhere with different software. So there's the chat going on.
Gina Turner:So, anyway, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say the things that we all know. Because they're, you know, again: breathe, and stretch, and get some exercise, and eat healthy. Like, we all know that it's nonsense. But find something that gives... it's not nonsense! But it would be nonsense for me to leave my answer at that. So for me, it's find the silver linings in what is going on, in the fact that we are being challenged as professors, and it's going to make us better professors in the future. I will just say as a side note, because I have a temporary position I've taken on now at the College, where I'm dealing with the diversity related issues on the campus. And that has given me such a fantastic way to focus, all of my anxiety, all of my anger, all of my sadness around all of the social justice issues that have been bubbling up all year. You know, finding pleasure in your life, whatever that means to you. I have re-read so many books that I love, this summer. Rather than seeking out new things to read, I've revisited old favorites, right? So everybody's self preservation, and everybody's self care is going to be very - it's going to be unique to them. Right? It's going to be very specific to them. But don't look at it as frivolous or coddling or that you're not tough enough to handle it. Because again, we are beings that need sustenance, and we are beings that need rest. And we need to take that seriously. So that's my answer.
Tom O'Connor:I love that you're reading old comfort books, I do the same thing. Becca knows where my go twos are, it's usually cheap, urban fantasy. And I can lose myself in poor prose and fun action. (laughter)
Rebecca Martin:That's important!
Kelly Allen:You're so dirty.(laughter)
Rebecca Martin:You know, Gina, one of the things I wanted to, when thinking about self care, I think that we all - getting back to your point about doing in the classroom, what we need to do for ourselves, like when when you say like, I will die on the mountain for this or done the hill for this, what I hear is, that is integral to my sustaining me through this.
Gina Turner:Absolutely!
Rebecca Martin:...and that your needs are important in the classroom. And I was trying, maybe I didn't, I try to be really transparent with my students about my own needs. So like, when you say, I need some structure, guys, like I need to, I need your assignments in so that I can grade them because that's part of what's keeping me kind of anchored here and sustaining me through the semester. Like that should be as respected by them. And I find that our students are incredibly respectful of that when when you say it to them like that. And I feel like this is part of what we've been getting out with classroom policies, when we can talk about why they're necessary. Like, what the logic is to it, then suddenly, they're not just these like amorphous things that we're enacting on students, they make sense to them. Oh, so that policies in place because you're gonna burn out by week eight, and I understand that! I can understand burnout. And so suddenly, then we're partners in this journey through class and not so much like, I'm telling you how to do X, because that's just the way it's gonna be. And I don't know, I I love that. And that's what I heard in what you're saying.
Gina Turner:Just really quickly, that's exactly right, Rebecca. And I always tell my students on the first day that every professor is like a different boss. And how many of you have had crazy bosses, but every professor is going to have their own expectations and their own needs for what they need to happen in the class. And I tell them exactly what you said. I say for me, It would be too much for me to keep track of late assignments. It just doesn't work for me. And that's why I've built the class this way. So yeah, being you know, Tom mentioned vulnerability, so being honest and vulnerable with your students. Absolutely. But I would - Oh, go ahead.
Rebecca Martin:I just think - I want to advocate for everyone listening to this, to think about that in their policies, like one of the most transforming moments I've ever had in the classroom was when a student in the back of the room, I was teaching it all bright in my adult in the adult completion program. And I'm like rattling off about thesis statements, right? Because I just taught at Lehigh. And everybody there knew what a thesis statement was. A student in the back, loudly says, I have no idea what you're talking about lady. And I was like, Oh, you know, is this moment and then she's asking me good questions, follow ups, like, what do you mean by that? What does that mean? What does that mean? And I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm grading her on something I can't explain to her. Like, how messed up is that? And so I think that as educators, if we have logic and reasoning behind the policies that we put in place, it's really easy to explain to students why we're doing it. There's, it's transparent. And I think the Coronavirus has made us recognize that we we need to think through those things. So if we have a policy in place that we just stick to because I don't know, because that's what academic rigor is, but we can't explain it more than that, then that should be something we maybe need to like, interrogate a bit for ourselves, like, Is that what it means to me? So anyway, that's just, I just think that's so useful in thinking through our own policies, like we absolutely can differ on those. But we also have to have reasons behind them.
Tom O'Connor:So Becca, I've written what I think you're going to answer. So what is you know, you're not getting out of the self care question. So what is something you're doing? That I know or not that you're doing for self care through these COVID times teaching at home?
Rebecca Martin:Yeah, so self care for me is, I have a body that if I don't do self care, it will just stop working. And then I can't like function, I can't do the things that I enjoy. So self care is like become like, I have to listen to it. So. Okay, so my self care thing. Some of them are healthy. Some of them are not. I buy antique jewelry on eBay a lot. (laughter) Or at least I browse on it.
Kelly Allen:You buy what?
Rebecca Martin:Oh, my God, antique jewelry on eBay.
Kelly Allen:Oh, okay. I'm sorry...
Rebecca Martin:Oh, I love it
Tom O'Connor:if I'm shown one more ring on eBay...
Rebecca Martin:But, um, you know, I feel like my self care is very much rooted in taking care of what needs to be addressed in the moment. So, if I'm in pain, then I might address that, like, it might just be rest and just watching TV that's mindless, like the Great British Baking Show.
Tom O'Connor:On paper, it's what I wrote down.
Rebecca Martin:I've learned so much about flours, their strong flour and all these different kinds of cake flour and bread flour. Um, that is like a go to for me. I'm revisiting old books that I love, just like Gina is Tom because I find them like a warm, fuzzy blanket. We have a lot of warm fuzzy blankets in our house. We're going very deep into the Hygge, that whatever it is, yeah, scented candles, nice bath salts, like these kinds of like physical things. I also, I think exercise is a good part of self care. It's hard if you have a body that doesn't do things well. So I have a recumbent bike that I've been really enjoying. It's a good way of kind of finishing the stress loop for me. Um, but yeah, those are some and obviously petting my dogs.
Tom O'Connor:That's a good one.
Rebecca Martin:That's so important.
Tom O'Connor:Kelly Do you have a dog?
Kelly Allen:No, I've got two kids. (laughter)
Rebecca Martin:All right, Kelly, your turn.
Kelly Allen:I haven't figured this out yet. So like...
Gina Turner:Doing this podcast is your self care!
Kelly Allen:Yes, it was certainly is, and I was gonna say that. You know, and I was hoping to kind of, I don't know, get that "Awww" moment, but whatever.
Gina Turner:Oh, no, sorry. I stole your thing.
Kelly Allen:You so you stole my"Awww" moment. No, I'm, yeah, I totally I haven't figured this out yet. And as you all know, I kind of overpack my life with stuff. And that's my fault. And I realized before COVID hit that it's actually kind of like a mental illness for me where I feel like I always have to be doing stuff because like, if I stop, then I'm being selfish or something like that. But so yeah...Wow, I'm gonna get real personal here. So I've started going back to therapy, and, talking with someone, so that's kind of helped. But like, one of the things that I talked with her about last time was, I realized that, like, I need to feel good about my body. Like, that's one of the ways that I can - that influences my mental health. You know, I got to make sure that my wife still thinks that I look sexy, you know, so I need to get outside and I need to be active. But I can't do that. Because you know, I'm teaching, I'm the board chair for our local food Co Op, I'm getting a PhD. I'm a parent, I'm a husband, like all these things. And it's like, man, if I could just get 45 minutes each day where I could just like, go for a long walk, or just like a short jog, that, that does a lot for my mental health. And like, then I can tolerate any of the bulls***. Sorry, Jeff, that, that the world can throw at me. So like, it's like, 45 minutes, that's all I need. And then the school year started, and my kids, like the local school district here, requires a lot of online learning for our children. And I've got a second grader and a fourth grader. All of a sudden, they're mental health is collapsing. I walked past our daughter's room like a couple weeks ago, and she's whimpering as she's looking at her laptop. And she's just like, Dad, I don't want to do this anymore. And you know, and I'm like, what the sorry, Jeff with the f***, and, so like, this is something that, I can't just be like, "Well, okay, we're all in this together. So we're all good!" No, you can't do that. So, I have to stop. So now, my wife and I, we each have to spend on average two hours a day, working with our children. So like that 45 minutes that I wanted, I don't have and I just lost an hour and 15 minutes. And this is where I was talking about before, when I was on my loud, angry rant, about, you know, like, we got to focus on each other as well. And each other's mental health, because there's so much... and here's where that capitalism, I think might be coming in, where we're focusing on our students and retention. You know, it's like, okay, you know, we just got to get you know, our students to these midterms, yeah, I get that. But okay, can we stop and also make sure that we get each other through midterms? Because, that's something that has really been missing from the the greater discourse. So yeah, going back. I haven't figured it out yet. I'm working on it. I'm doing my best
Tom O'Connor:Love is a radical politic. Kelly, I'm with you. I just teach in second wave feminism written in the 60s and 70s. And I said, Guys, they were onto something. Loving is radical. Yeah, I love that, and I think you're right. Hygge is... so there's a second component. So this is the Nordic, Scandinavian, Danish idea of cozy it was real big in like, 2016 2017 right after Trump got elected. And everyone's like, I need I need a blanket to hold me tight. You know, because...
Rebecca Martin:Ikea's still selling the mats Tom. So it's still a thing.
Tom O'Connor:So, I think I opened by saying this, that I'm crap at self care. And that, like you, Kelly, I feel like I've been losing that. Like, even when I try So Hygge .was going to be my self care was that I decided that like that, in quarantine I began some serious cocooning, but that then itself became the opposite of self care, because and Becca's gonna know this, because I set myself all these projects. And so I was like, I'm gonna make our house cozy. So I'm gonna pick all these warm colors to put on the walls. And then every weekend, I'm painting for 40 hours. Like, it's like epic fail, but then afterwards, and so here's my self care, and I'll keep it brief. And since we're clearly going to have the warning by this podcast that we've that we've cursed in it, although if we decide to bleep these out, I request the Harpo Marx kind of [Tom does horn imitation] that's a terrible Harpo Marx (laughter) but the sound effect is out there. My
self care is this:it is the opposite of what you're doing, Kelly, in the sense that when you said I need to look sexy for my wife Becca's thinking Tom let that one go five years ago.
Rebecca Martin:Oh stop!
Tom O'Connor:But it is because I've been like: Have you guys heard this word Doom scrolling?
Kelly Allen:No (laughs)
Tom O'Connor:It's like on your phone reading the news? Because the other thing that happened is I went home for quarantine. And even when I was working, I'd have the news on mute, you know, and closed captioning waiting for what was the next dumpster fire, right? And like that itself became unhealthy. So I'm, here's my self care. Every now and again to give myself a break. Like I'm recognizing that like I'm putting the paintbrush down. I'm turning the news off and waiting until the morning until I've collected myself after sleep to do it. I'm still standing by Hygge. I do three times a day. I look back and I go our home is now so beautiful. And it makes me feel good. So I'm letting myself know that it's okay that the work and stress that I caused myself is now worth it. And then I'm like laying it down. And I'm trying for quiet time. I'm not giving myself... I stress eat. So especially after you know, 40 minutes of Rachel Maddow, suddenly the ovens at 400 as I'm making myself happy by getting a ham and cheese sandwich, and I'm lactose intolerant, so everyone pays for that decision.
Gina Turner:Well, on that note... (laughter)
Tom O'Connor:But give yourself a break.
Gina Turner:Yeah, everybody, just give yourself a break. I mean, I think that that's a take home from what we talked about being in the classroom to is, students need to give themselves a break. The professors need to give themselves a break, in our personal lives. we need to give ourselves a break. And, so I think we will leave it there and wish that all of you listening, if you're still listening, can give yourselves a break. And hopefully we will talk to you again soon.
Tom O'Connor:We will!
Kelly Allen:Absolutely thank you so much.
Tom O'Connor:Thank you guys. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you, Becca. Thank you, everyone for listening. Imagine the Pedagogy-a-go-go song is playing in my head right now. But we hope to be back with you in a couple weeks. We want to talk some social justice issues. We want to talk election and politics. There's a lot going on we want to talk about so we hope you come share in that too. Hey, thanks for listening to Pedagogy-a-go-go recorded in the Center for Teaching Learning and Technology at Northampton Community College in Bethlehem Pennsylvania. Our podcast daydreamer slash show runner is Kelly Allen and Pedagogy-a-go-go is produced by Jeff Armstrong. If you've got any questions, please send them to Pedagogy-a-go-go at gmail.com. Our social media handle is at Pedagogy-a-go-go and you can stop by our website at www Pedagogy-a-go-go dot com for copies of podcasts, transcripts, guest assignments and other useful tidbits. Keep in mind there are no hyphens or dots in any of the above web addresses. Until next time, this is Gina and Tom saying Take care and teach well